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Poster: merryjerry1 Date: Jan 31, 2014 1:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Europe '72 Overdubs

Great read. Thank you.

From the essay:

'No information was provided regarding which live tracks were supplanted by overdubs performed in the studio after the tour. Sometimes Jeff Norman, the audio engineer, used the studio-dubbed vocals; in other cases he recovered the original live vocals. Some of the differences are obvious, some are only apparent when comparing to circulating tapes, and others can’t reliably be sussed out. Unless Norman wants to tell what he knows, we may never be able to untangle all of the details, and I suspect he has been sworn to secrecy.'

Any ideas as to why?

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Jan 31, 2014 2:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Europe '72 Overdubs

Um, why what? I'm not sure what you're asking about. Remember, I didn't write the essay. I'll try to give a few answers -

Why no information on overdubs was in the box set - maybe negligence, maybe because none of the essays in the book were about the album, or maybe it's their usual pattern of not providing technical recording info.
Why Norman used some live vocals, some studio vocals - I think this was covered pretty well in the essay.
Why Norman hasn't told what he knows - actually I doubt he's been "sworn to secrecy;" probably if anyone sat down & asked him track by track, he could tell us all the details. I don't know of any interviews like that, though.

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Poster: merryjerry1 Date: Jan 31, 2014 3:22am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Europe '72 Overdubs

Thanks for your reply and apologies for not being too clear in my question.

It just seems that they could've provided all of this information in the box set and, when it isn't known, simply state it as such. It's the same with patches on official releases--the question is more of an archival one than a technical recording/mastering one. Of course, one might ask, who cares? But then again, it is a boutique product.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Jan 31, 2014 11:29am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Europe '72 Overdubs

"Who cares?" Perhaps that's their attitude! But they never give this kind of technical info. Norman could easily have written a page simply stating what overdubs made it onto the box set, but I'm not sure they even considered it.

On the other hand, that gives fanatical fans some mysteries to solve...

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Poster: Monte B Cowboy Date: Jan 31, 2014 12:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Europe '72 Overdubs

freaked-out hippie-essay about Ampex and my funky electronics career
- this was just updated and refreshed today
- the top of the thread is our detailed tech info about recording Europe '72
- I forgot what else I was going to say... carry on, out... peace, too.
archive_hat_smoking.jpg

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Poster: merryjerry1 Date: Feb 1, 2014 1:12am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Europe '72 Overdubs

'On the other hand, that gives fanatical fans some mysteries to solve...'

Couldn't agree more!


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Poster: wisconsindead Date: Jan 31, 2014 11:00am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Europe '72 Overdubs

"It's the same with patches on official releases"

True. I've told David a few times that they should do this with all of their releases. I dont think anyone there cares enough to share it. Daves picks 8 doesnt even mention that its a matrix just states additional recordings provided by...

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Jan 31, 2014 11:18am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Europe '72 Overdubs

Have you been keeping a list of all the patches on official releases? I think there needs to be a comprehensive list somewhere, because so many releases have little edits or substitutions here & there.

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Poster: wisconsindead Date: Jan 31, 2014 11:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Europe '72 Overdubs

Hey LIA, hope you're well.

I have not kept a list, I do agree that there should be a list. I can work on compiling one. If you have some that you've found please pm at TA. Everytime I come across one and figure out where its from I add it to the wikipedia page for that release.

example
"This release is known to have a patched cut in the original soundboard tapes. If certain soundboards are missing parts of a song those creating the release will attempt to patch the cut if possible. Sometimes this is from an audience source or from an entirely different show. Unfortunately there is no database for these fixed soundboards and hence is up to the listeners to stumble upon such a discovery. The "Morning Dew" from November 10, 1973 on disc 5 uses a patch from the "Morning Dew" performed on November 17, 1973. The excerpt can be heard from 2:19 to 2:49 on this release and Dave's Picks Volume 5 (November 17, 1973)."

So DP 28, DP 36, Winterland 73 have it on the wiki page. I cant think of the others I've found, went to DSO last night and am sleep deprived, smoking jan 2nd 70 show :)

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Feb 1, 2014 2:03am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Europe '72 Overdubs

If you'd like to volunteer to compile a list of the known edits & patches, that would be great! I remember you posting new finds now & then and thought you were keeping track.

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Poster: merryjerry1 Date: Feb 1, 2014 1:18am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Europe '72 Overdubs

Good ears and good work, man!

As LIA said above, the list would need to include edits (such as Phil's solo on TOO from DP1) and it should also include those releases where there is different track sequencing from the original performance (again, like DP1). In fact, in the Compendium John Dwork gave a very positive assessment of DP1 but did lament the fact that they didn't provide the original setlist/order in the liners. At least for DaP6 they did tell how to sequence the tracks back to the original.

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Poster: wisconsindead Date: Feb 1, 2014 7:43am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Europe '72 Overdubs

Could you go into more detail about this? I dont know anything about cuts in DP 1 or 6

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Poster: merryjerry1 Date: Feb 1, 2014 12:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Europe '72 Overdubs

Absolutely. First off, what Pat said. Also, check out the AUD which is, more or less, the show in its entirety:

https://archive.org/details/gd73-12-19.aud.clugston.8602.sbeok.shnf

You can see that the order of the tracks has been somewhat resequenced, certain tunes have been omitted, and that, most notably, Phil's solo from 'The Other One' has been excised. John Dwork provided the entry for this show in Vol. 1 of the Tape Trader's Compendium and he writes about this issue a little bit there. You can also check out LIA's excellent essay on Dick Latvala, where he writes:

'After the first Dick’s Pick, though, fans had to wait a long time for the second one, which didn’t come out until ’95. The main delay came from Phil Lesh, who was being his picky self about the live releases. (He had asked, for instance, that his bass solo be omitted from 12/19/73.)'

http://deadessays.blogspot.com.tr/2011/02/dick-latvala.html

But I should say that I only know this from reading, not listening. Listening for these things, like you have done, is no small feat!

As for the other part of your question, I was referring to Dave's Picks 6, not Dick's Picks 6, and I only wanted to draw attention to the fact that here they do indeed inform us that the tracks from the '69 show have been somewhat resequenced so that the continuity of the jams could be preserved (and it may also have helped to keep the release limited to 3 CDs) and, to which, I say fair enough.

Of course, with some of these recently returned '69-'71 mystery tapes it could be that they're not releasing the shows in their entirety (for whatever reason) and it would certainly be nice to know as much about the original setlist as possible. In the liner notes they could easily state something along the lines of, for example, 'we omitted song x because the sound quality was beyond salvaging' or 'this setlist looks rather truncated for the period so it probably doesn't represent the entirety of the evening's performance but it's all we got and all we know' or 'while no known setlist of this performance has previously circulated we believe that this represents the evening's complete performance'.

Take care.




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Poster: Pat Buzby Date: Feb 2, 2014 11:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Europe '72 Overdubs

There is also the SBD/AUD matrix of 12-19-73 where they have left part of Let It Grow as AUD only because of the issue I mentioned. About 20 seconds of the Playing In The Band jam was lost in a reel flip but of course this was not patched.

https://archive.org/details/gd1973-12-19.126124.mtx.dusborne.droncit.flac16

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Poster: wisconsindead Date: Feb 1, 2014 2:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Europe '72 Overdubs

Very interesting. Yea the only way I find them is by the time I know two versions of a song well enough to say... wait a minute!

Truckin from DP 18 also has a patch from 1/31/78 Truckin a few minutes in. Its a flawless transition which was really tough to determine the beginning and end of the patch. In fact, Im not sure if I ever put it on wikipedia because i couldnt determine it. Either way its not there.

So...
DP 1 - Phil Solo (TOO)
DP 20 - Eyes
DP 28 - Morning Dew and Eyes
DP 36 - FOTD
Winterland 73 Box - Morning Dew

anything else?

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Feb 1, 2014 5:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Europe '72 Overdubs

It was discussed here a while ago that the 5/13/77 Goin' Down the Road on the May '77 box was completely replaced by the 6/8/77 GDTRFB that was already on the Winterland '77 box!

https://archive.org/post/938099/same-version-different-dates-wtf-is-going-on-here

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Poster: Pat Buzby Date: Jan 31, 2014 3:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Europe '72 Overdubs

Re Dick's Picks patches.

DP1 has a section of "Let It Grow" around "she comes from the town" patched with 12-18-73.

DP20 has the intro of "The Wheel" (disc four) patched and I believe "Mississipi Half Step" (disc two) is also patched, since there is a noticeable change in the mix in the "across the Rio Grande-oo" chorus.

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Poster: wisconsindead Date: Jan 31, 2014 3:56pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Europe '72 Overdubs

Excellent, thanks Pat.

Did you find these yourself or did you hear from someone else?

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Poster: Pat Buzby Date: Feb 1, 2014 8:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Europe '72 Overdubs

People have talked about the DP1 edit (I remember Dick himself mentioned the "surgery" on Weather Report Suite) but I checked for details.

The DP20 I found myself. On the audience tape of 9/28/76 the segue from Playing In The Band to The Wheel is very different from what is on the official CD, but unfortunately a few minutes are missing from the soundboard tape at that point.

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Poster: Pat Buzby Date: Jan 31, 2014 7:20am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Europe '72 Overdubs

Thanks for the link.

To mention a couple of things I also mentioned on the deadessays page, Keith's piano was redone on several songs from the original album. Also, although the writer believes Merl Saunders is not on the album, I think it is his organ playing on "He's Gone" rather than Pig's. I'll check this again sometime soon.